Posted by: thebuffyrewatch | November 4, 2012

Podcast #85: Fool For Love

Here’s the podcast for Season 5, Episode 7 – Fool For Love

Spike gives a Slayer lesson

Spike gives a Slayer lesson

Download: Fool For Love

RSS Feed: The Buffy Rewatch

The next podcast will appear on Monday 12th November 2012 for episode eight of Season Five: “Shadow.” That’s the one where Buffy finds out what is wrong with Joyce and the Beast makes another move against her.

Comment on this post to get your views on the podcast.

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  1. I disagree so strongly that Buffy is any way attracted to Spike. I don’t know if the “You’re beneath me” is a mock or an echo. It could be either because I see it in Buffy to mock him and I could see how she could come up with that phrase by herself. Buffy has a way of speaking that kind of exists outside of her time and can be melodramatic “When you kiss me I want to die.”

    I think the whole reason she lets Spike sit down next to her is that she has kind of given up at that moment. This really is the moment that Spike speaks of when the slayer wants to die. Buffy has the momentary collapse of confidence and I believe if any demon had come up and attacked her they would have won.

    • You could read “Shadow” and say it contradicts pretty much everything I just said about the last scene of “Fool for Love”. I still don’t agree that Buffy is attracted to Spike. I think the story told in “Shadow” is more anti-Riley/pro-Angel then anti-Riley/pro-Spike. Buffy did joke in season for that “I like my evil, like I like my men. Evil.” Buffy is attracted to darkness. Her relationship with Angel was so intense because of his whole tortured soul vampire routine. I’m not denying that but I think she loved Liam not Angelus. I think Buffy likes her evil in moderation. Spike disgusts her because he has no soul is not repentant. There was an episode of Supernatural where a character was able to see demon’s true face (other than the body they inhabited) and Spike’s true face is a disgusting evil thing and that’s how Buffy sees him. I won’t deny that the evidence is there for Buffy is attracted to Spike, I just don’t agree in anyway that it is the case. I feel like it contradicts the hero-ness of Buffy that she has feelings for a demon as evil as Spike is now.

      Two quick other bits:

      Michelle Trachtenberg out acts Marc Blucas in the carousel scene. One of the reasons I will defend Dawn is that she is the same age as I was when my own parent was in and out the hospital with surgeries and tests. She nails that feeling. It’s different than what Buffy is feeling because she is effectively the other parent in the situation.

      Buffy would rely on Angel more than she is relying on Riley. However Angel wouldn’t need her to rely on him like Riley needs that reliance. Season 5 Riley is a completely understandable character and is even relatable, but he is not sympathetic. This is probably because of his depiction in season 4 but I find him selfish and annoying with his desire to be needed. Buffy isn’t blameless but I just find nothing to latch on to the story with Riley. It’s the overall problem I have with Riley he is fine I’m just completely ambivalent to him as a character and his involvement in the story.

      • Here’s my equation for Buffy’s attraction to men:

        Angelus (evil) + Liam (relatively boring good guy) + soul = Angel = Love

        Agent Finn (relatively boring good guy) + Cardboard = Riley = appreciate

        William (relatively boring good guy) + Spike (evil) – soul = Disgust

      • Last comment I swear on this episode but do you who needed Riley… Forrest. THEIR LOVE WILL NEVER DIE!

      • do you know*

      • Derek, this is easily the best Math problem ever. I think I actually would have paid attention in Math class if it was all based around Buffy relationships.

    • Derek –

      I totally agree with your summation on the ending scene in Fool for Love. Makes perfect sense to me and is how I’ve always viewed the scene.

      And I still think her saying “You’re beneath me” is coincidental. That’s why it effects him so much. I think if she was throwing it back to him he would have probably immediately jumped to anger.

      How do you like Spike’s insult of Riley as “White Bread.” Lol

      • I think anyone who has read my comments knows a Riley insult is a win in my book. However I don’t see that as an insult as just a pure fact haha.

  2. Regarding Spike and Buffy in the Bronze. I’ve always figured that the town amnesia ended when the Mayor turned into a giant snake. Now they’re all aware of it and ignore it as best they can.

    As for the difference between the “smart” and “stupid” vampires. Part of it is how they were “raised”, as you guys suggest in the podcast. But I think part of it is also how smart they were when they were alive.

  3. SHADOW:

    Holy foreshadowing!

    In Restless, Buffy dreams that Joyce is living in the wall,
    Buffy wants her to come out, but she can’t. When she
    tells Buffy that she could help her, Buffy turns and walks

    Similarly, here Joyce is caught somewhere where Buffy
    can’t get to her, and when Buffy asks how she can help,
    everyone tells her she can’t.

    Buffy has fought anything that comes her way, but now
    she is facing something bigger and scarier than anything
    she’s come up against. Buffy has never met anything
    she couldn’t fight, and now she’s facing something that
    could kill her mother, all she can do is sit back and watch.

    This is a haunting episode and it’s nice to see Joyce get
    her own storyline after so much time. Kristine Sutherland
    really gets to shine as an actress and she contributes so
    much to the emotional weight of this season.

    SIDENOTE: I love the emotion in Buffy when she took
    down the massive snake. Even if said snake looked
    horribly fake. She had to get her hands on something
    tangible and almost seems to enjoy beating on it.
    It’s a very poignant moment.

  4. I disagree about how you guys said they changed the story about Spike being obsessed with Buffy in the scene with Dru and the Chaos demon. The way I see it is this is Drusilla’s perspective and why she broke it off with Spike. In Lovers Walk, we hear everything from Spike’s. And from living in the real world, I have picked up that you can tell a person one thing and they turn around with a completely separate reason. I had a boyfriend like that, and I would tell him something and he would walk away with the opposite of what I tried conveying. So I saw Lovers Walk as Spike taking what reason he wanted from the break up, and running with it. He and Dru were together for over a hundred years, and it makes sense to me that he would be upset and want to be back in a comfortable relationship. The only one he has ever had.

    As for being obsessed over Buffy, I completely saw that from day one in School Hard when he was stalking her in the Bronze. I saw his obsession growing into infatuation and at this point attraction, through the years. I don’t think he knew it himself, and was in denial and just now realizing it.

    • I totally agree with Angela here! I think what Dru is referring to is Spike obsession with the Slayer and to kill her, not so much that he is in love with her.

      When we look at Spike’s past it’s easy to see that he is in constant search for the Slayer and the rush of killing one. Even crazy Dru can see it’s not always good to obsess over a one thing, especially when it’s trying to kill something as strong as Buffy who could kill Angelus. So during 1998 his obsession is with eating the Slayer not so much being in love with Buffy. That, as we’ve seen in season 5, is a newer development.

  5. How the Vampire lore works.

    I think that this debate is going to rage as the series progresses and its only going to get more interesting to talk about.

    I’ve always took it more as a birth of a new life. Theres an Angel episode with Dru where she describes herself as becoming a new “mommy.” It’s a demon w/all of your memories and experiences. But in the case of Spike, he’s seems to have hold on to his humanity in many aspects. He also seems very motivated by what he was. Goes from a stuffy upper class Nancy Boy to more of a working class vampire(most notably with the shift in the accent). David Fury in some of the commentaries(cant remember the specific episodes :/ ) shared his personal views on Spike, saying that he thought that Spike was different from all other vampires. So maybe there is even a special supernatural circumstance.

    Angelus on the other hand seems very different from his drunk Irish self.

    It’s fascinating trying to determine the differences of what in fact is happening in the supernatural sense, and whether there are indeed different kinds of Vampires. Because it is a supernatural event that leaves a lot of wiggle room. So who’s to say what’s really going on. Maybe the demon having those human memories and experiences motivate them in there particular obsessions. In any case most vampires that have been turned seem obsessed with there old human lives (at least at first). There’s a later episode that will deal with newly turned Spike which reiterates this and newly turned Angelus goes and kills his family once he’s been turned. An act of shedding there humanity yet it seems very personal. If it was just some random demon wouldn’t they be more a ken to Supernatural where they take a body and then go about there own business.

    Really I’m more fascinated by the idea of ReEnsouling a vampire. I don’t think it is the old soul of the “owner.” It’s not like Angel went back to Liam. So again more of a birth of a new entity(similar to turning into a vampire). It’s a soul that has all the memories and experiences as its previous owner just had its guilt and empathy out back in. And in “Darla” the Angel episode with those flashbacks. We see Angel try and keep his old life as Angelus which after a while he can’t do, so its more of him trying to get back to what he was.

    So obviously the lore can be taken in a number of different ways. It at least brings up a fun debate.

  6. Fool For Love

    As soon as William exclaimed that he was “the very spirit of vexation” I knew he was going to be a tragically adorable character (I particularly loved how he couldn’t find a rhyme for “gleaming”). William’s passion for poetry is a wonderful touch; Spike is quite the observer of the human condition and is often able to see things others cannot (see “Lover’s Walk”). I also really liked the inclusion of the chaos demon. In “Lover’s Walk”, Spike describes them as all horns and slime. I never expected the horns to be straight-up antlers. It made me laugh out loud during my first viewing. One thing that wasn’t brought up is that Spike also picked up a trophy from the first slayer he killed. If you’ve ever noticed, Spike has a scar on his left eyebrow (a real-life James Marsters scar). He doesn’t have it as William, nor before he fights the slayer during the boxer rebellion, where she slices his eyebrow with her sword. It’s a nice subtle detail that I just love. I agree with Robin that I think it was a coincidence (albeit a convenient one) that Buffy says “You’re beneath me”. It was always my impression that Spike did not tell her everything that we as an audience were able to see. He has his “bad boy” reputation to uphold, after all. I don’t think he’d ever let Buffy know the kind of man he once was.

    P.S. I’m not sure if this is considered a spoiler, but this is actually not the last time on Buffy that we will see William.

  7. Shadow:
    The great challenge of a show like Buffy is how to keep finding bigger and badder big bads for Buffy to fight (yes, I know badder is not a real word). I like that even with Glory looming in the background, season 5 starts with a story that is truly scary to Buffy. She comes face to face with a problem that she can’t simply kill. That’s the glory of season 5 (pun not intended); it deals with the personal issues of our characters while they are still dealing with the potential end of the world.

    It’s such a weird feeling as an audience to watch a helpless Buffy. We can all empathize with Buffy in these situations. I think what makes these scenes so hard to watch (in the best way possible) is that we know that there is nothing Buffy can do, we are used to Buffy always having the answers but as an audience we know that she can’t find them for this situation. I also second or third or whatever all the motions that Kristine Sutherland is great in the episode.

    Come to the dark side Riley! This is such a nice layer to add to the Riley character, the scene with Spike where he holds him in the sunlight then, eventually pushes him out into it, shows a great new layer to Riley. This entire episode he walks the line of Dark Side Riley and Captain America it’s actually quite entertaining. What I enjoy is that this change isn’t happening for no reason, he’s changing because of what Buffy is doing to him; her lack of attention and lack of willingness to take comfort in Riley is what is driving him down the dark path. (Maybe that’s what he was missing the entire time layers and depth 😉 ) It’s in exploring the dark side of his character that makes his Captain America side all that more enjoyable to watch. It’s episodes like these that make me a Riley apologist. Not a great character on the whole, but one that I think takes more of a beating then he deserves.
    The scene with Xander and Riley in the magic box is another scene showing the transformation of Xander dumb teenage boy (like we all are) and into a more grown up version of himself. I think this is just another step in Xander actually becoming the moral compass, ground and heart of the group. I’ve very much enjoyed growing friendship between these two over the course of the season.

    Really enjoy the Scoobies sub-plot of discovering Glory. If for nothing else then they are finally doing research again! Sure she walks right into them and that’s why they actually figure it out. But hey giving them an “A” for effort. I love that Tara calls Giles, Mr. Giles, it’s endlessly cute to me.
    Finally Glory, I’m hoping that is where her character turns the corner. I like that the character’s crazy is morphing into a total valley girl. She’s extremely obsessed with her looks and fashion and through this we can see that she’s not the typical demon, also that she’s not quite right (for her… species?) Anyway, let’s hope she keeps going down this path of “valley girl who can kick butt for the negative reasons”, rather than “a crazy, shallow demon”. You know… thinking about what I just wrote it reminds me of what Uncle Ben says to Peter Parker (Spiderman) “With great power comes great responsibility.” I’m not sure if this will fit going forward once we know more about Glory and who she is, but it’s interesting to compare her with Buffy and to see what each has chosen to do with their great powers.
    Besides the Bad CGI Snake and not being a fan of the Buffy wrestling the snake scene either this episode is pretty good. It never quite touches the epicness some of the best episodes of the series but I don’t have a whole lot to complain about. On the whole, I’d call this pretty good.

    Bunny Nightmares!!!! (Is this the first Anya hates Bunnies moment?)

  8. Sorry, guys, I haven’t been here for quite a long time. Haven’t seen any episode of season 5 so far (for rewatch). Soo, I have to catch up with a lot of episodes. Starting with the last 2 episodes of season 4:

    Naa, not my favourite episode although it has some nice moments – I don’t have much to say about it.
    After Adam points out the flaw in Spike’s plan, Spike replies “let’s not quibble about who failed who,” could be a reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where a lord, after his hoped-for son-in-law kills multiple people remarks: “let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who.”

    I love that the last episode was a quiet one. Restless has so many hints for the upcoming season. I think you only get them all after watching this episode and season 5 a few times. Prior to “Restless” Joss Whedon often used dreams and cryptic dialogue to foreshadow events, but in this episode foreshadowing becomes a major function of many of the images, conversations, and inferences. In a dream, Buffy and Faith make a bed; Faith says “Little sister is coming,” foreshadowing the arrival of Dawn at the beginning of the next season. This is the second reference of Faith to Dawn’s arrival.

    Each dream acts as a character study, exploring the fears and future of the dreamer. The way in which each is killed is directly related to the role they had assumed when melding with Buffy in Primevil—that role is indicated by the Tarot-like card used to symbolize the character’s essence. Willow’s card had been Spiritus, representing her magical powers; she is killed by having her spirit sucked out of her. Xander’s card had been Animus, representing his heart; he is killed by having his heart ripped out. Giles had been represented by the card Sophus, a symbol of his intellect and role as teacher; he is killed by being scalped.

    Willow writes greek words on Tara’s back. It’s a fragment by Sappho, a greek poet, about the godess Aphrodite.

    I love the scene with Xander watching Willow and Tara in the back of his car. We don’t see Tara and Willow kiss each other but we see it in the reaction in Xanders face. Joss wasn’t allowed to show the kiss and so they choose this way and it’s brilliant. It says, not a love between two women is abnormal, but the (male) view of it.

    Joss about the cheese man: “The cheese man means nothing. He is the only thing in the show that means nothing. I needed something like that, something that couldn’t be explained, because dreams always have that one element that is just ridiculous. Thus, man of cheese. Plus funny. (to me)”

    Joss about the writing process: “The most important thing when I first started it was that the dreams be dreamlike… It’s about combining the totally surreal with the totally mundane… It then became a question of basically writing poetry…basically free-associating. Obviously, things had to get worse at the end of each act—people had to be in peril because this thing was trying to kill them in their dreams. But beyond that, there really was no structure. So I was basically sitting down to write a forty-minute tone poem.”

    My favourite scene:
    Buffy sitting in the very big sandbox (after she says to Xander that she is way ahead of him) in combination with the music. I don’t know why I like this scene but when I think of Restless I remember this one. I also love the scene with Buffy, Tara and the First Slayer. The music is great.

    Unlike most episodes, this episode aired the “previously” montage, then the credits, then the first scene. (Usually, it goes “previously” montage, first scene, credits)


  9. Puhh, now I managed to catch up with all the missing episodes in just one day…

    Fool for love:
    A very good episode which I enjoyed a lot.

    The scene in South America is a reference to the Season 3 Episode “Lover’s Walk.” When Spike is drunkenly confiding in Willow, he mentions he caught Drusilla making out with a Chaos Demon. The Chaos Demon, matching Spike’s description in “Lover’s Walk”, is in the middle of the argument between Spike and Drusilla.

    The actress playiny Cecily will appear again in later episodes (I’m not sure at the moment if she has appeared before so I won’T say anything about her).

    • I didn’t listen to te podcasts before I wrote my comments. So I’m afraid I repeated a lot what’s already been said. Sorry for that!

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