Posted by: thebuffyrewatch | July 3, 2013

Podcast #116: Doublemeat Palace


Here’s the podcast for Season 6, Episode 12 – Doublemeat Palace

Buffy at the Palace

Buffy at the Palace

Download: Doublemeat Palace

RSS Feed: The Buffy Rewatch

The next podcast will appear on Monday 8th July 2013 for episode thirteen of Season Six: “Dead Things.” That’s the one where things with the Trio get dark.

Comment on this post to get your views on the podcast.

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  1. The slightly crackling audio wasn’t bad at all, Robin! I hardly noticed it.

    Doesn’t Buffy unlock the door for Willow in Doublemeat Palace? I remember her pressing a button before Willow runs in. Also that guy’s delivery of “Do you want to look inside my ears?” was so creepy. Bleghhh. I agree that he was the best of the odd coworkers.

    Dead Things isn’t a fun episode to watch but I think it’s one of the strongest of S6. We start to understand what effect Buffy’s relationship with Spike has really had on her. The time-wonky demons the Trio summon are an example of how so many aspects of this episode reflect Buffy’s muddled state of mind.

    I know Cordia’s gotten annoyed that the writers keep touching on the idea of Buffy killing a human and then backing away from it, but that’s never bugged me. Though Buffy HAS killed humans like the Knights of Byzantium in self defense (and stabbing Faith to save Angel was attempted murder). To me Buffy’s reaction to the possibility is effective. I love her paralyzed shock and the way Spike shakes her and tells her “you’re going to crawl into your warm comfy bed and stay there.” The dream sequence connects her guilt regarding her relationship with Spike to how she feels she’s failing at her calling. She wants to slip back into that moral hero role but she can’t. I also like the Dawn/Buffy scene. It makes sense that Buffy wants to turn herself in and be punished – not just for killing Katrina but for everything else that’s happened this season. However, while she doesn’t want to leave Dawn specifically, I do think Dawn is right in saying that this is just another form of escapism. I still don’t get why she always has to storm off in every single one of her scenes, but whatever.

    There are several Faith parallels to both Buffy and Spike in the alley scene. Spike’s “tip the scales” argument is reminiscent of Faith’s argument in Consequences. Buffy again rejects that because she’s always cared about every innocent bystander. Maybe it’s a naive attitude but that’s what Giles was protecting when he killed Ben in The Gift and that’s the tremendous sense of responsibility that’s always made Buffy such a great hero. Spike even says “that’s my girl,” which is what Faith said in Consequences. The other parallel is Buffy beating up Spike in a violent act of self-loathing. It’s like Faith beating herself up in Who Are You? Everything she says to Spike is directed at herself.

    Now she’s not only using Spike for sex but also as her own personal punching bag, and she can’t even blame her behavior on the resurrection. The realization, the disgust, and the guilt when Buffy says “I didn’t come back wrong?” is heart-breaking. (“tell me that I’m wrong, please” again reminds me of Faith in Who Are You?) All she wants to be is to be punished and all Tara will offer her is forgiveness and understanding. I absolutely love Tara in this scene. She is so sweet and non-judgmental. Her sympathetic reaction may not be what Buffy wants but it’s exactly what she needs.

    Other random comments –
    Katrina just might win the award for most horrifying mini-arc on BtVS. That entire Trio plotline is so disgusting. It is a turning point for their story but how can they be so grossly delusional to not realize that what they’re doing is rape?

    I never thought Buffy repeating the “you always hurt the one you love” line meant that she loves Spike. I mean, she’s talking about Warren when she says it – Warren certainly didn’t love Katrina, and Buffy certainly doesn’t love Spike.

  2. Hello, have to apologise for prematurely aborting my voicemail – sorry Robin…always loathed voicemail – can’t help getting insane giggles – back to the written word….

    As I was trying to say, I really really like this episode.

    Trio stuff: At last their characters are developing. Warren showing quite pyschopathic traits – he has no sympathy for Katrina at all. Andrew and Johnathan are just thoughtless and selfish and easily led. I could believe them so divorced from reality that they hadn’t really calculated that they were attempting a gang rape. Or at least they are immoral enough to be able to keep that idea internally hidden until it is spelt out to them by Katrina. Is that the point of the trio? To show that human thoughtlessness can cause as much harm as demons….not sure it’s been worth it.

    Spike/Buffy: I wanted to comment on their relationship overall. Lots of superheros are doing the going-dark thing but, at least in films like Batman, that seems to mostly consist of looking a bit sulky and petulent. I think it’s fascinating to push it a bit further. Living a life of violence and dishing out punishment it makes a lot of sense that Buffy might start to explore these elements in her sex life. But her problem is that she has always had such a strong and strict moral sense that she can’t forgive herself for what she sees as a weakness. As far as Spike goes, from what we’ve seen of him and Drusilla, it seems that vampires tend to go in for sadistic / masochistic sex as a norm. But he seems to want the relationship to have more romantic basis – as he seems very pleased with their friendly post coital chat at the beginning of this episode. It’s such a doomed but intriguing romance.

    Other stuff: The time-shifting demons seemed a pretty credible plot device. I was very confused when I first watched but it made sense this time. I found the Dawn scenes the least satisfying. She seemed to be too cross too quickly.
    Tara was great as a confidant to to Buffy. One of the few characters on TV that when they say they promise not to betry a secret you really believe them.

    I didn’t find the crackle on the last poscast at all annoying by the way. Thanks as always.

  3. I got a chuckle out of the unintentional (by the Scoobies to Buffy) euphemisms in this episode. “All tied up” and “pounding the big evil”. Hilarious!

    Ok, so I have some thoughts/issues with this episode. I’m glad that Katrina bluntly calls what the Trio has planned ‘rape’, because that is what it is. But while the episode is so feminist in this regard, I just felt sad for Buffy to be so terrified of her sexual identity to assume she must be demon to have those desires. I realize that she wasn’t super excited about the idea that something must be amiss if punching her doesn’t cause Spike’s chip to fire, but she isn’t pushed to do anything about it until Spike calls her an animal in the sack. Spike beating her up and calling her a demon wasn’t enough, but this was the last straw? I didn’t think twice about this the first watch-through, but this time around it was really puzzling. Only demons are allowed to get kinky? There are dozens of reasons to be concerned about Spike’s chip not working on her and her relationship with Spike in general, but being sexually adventurous isn’t one of them. She seems inordinately preoccupied with just that part of the Spike issue.

    Also, Dawn is becoming increasingly mature. She’s still running off in a fit over everything, but she is making some good connections with what’s going on around her. Last episode with her realization about Buffy’s career choices, and here with how Buffy is dealing with being back from Heaven. It’s not much, but hey, character growth. Last season she just would have yelled GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT and burned stuff.

  4. Well you have severely underestimated my vanity. As soon as the last podcast came out I grabbed it and skipped ahead until I found my comment. Thank you for saying I was well articulated, somehow that compliment means more when delivered with a British accent. Also don’t worry about your fans, I would much rather share them than take them outright.
    As far as the Oz things go I do not remember where I learned that exactly, I spent far more time than most would consider healthy watching and researching this show, so most of the trivia I have collected more or less blends together. I did however do a quick google search and according to Wikipedia it is in the DVD commentary for season two, innocence.

    Now on to season five. So far I have listened up to Triangle and have very little I can defend. There are several points I would like to argue but unfortunately my only come back for most of these moments runs along the lines of, “Yah but I like that part.” and somehow I don’t think that would be worth very much. Here are the few points I have that are worth sharing.

    Listening to fear.
    It appears to be taken for granted that Spikes role in this episode is simply an attempt to put him in the episode, I disagree. In the episode Crush we are going to learn that Spike has been collecting, lets call them tokens, of Buffy’s for quite some time based on the collection he develops. This is one of the several establishing shots we have to make that moment believable. Another issue with this scene is the convenience of him appearing from her basement but lets take a moment to remember that we have already seen proof that Spike is stalking Buffy. She may have had to much on her mind to care, but the cigarette butts behind that tree back in no place like home are hard for the viewer to miss. So although this scene may have little to do with the episode, it is perfectly in line with Spikes over all arc this season therefor worth having.

    I also want to point out that I think the moment when Dawn goes after the Queller with a coat hook is one of the first moments we get that makes it believable that Dawn was created from Buffy’s blood.

    I do have an issue with the Queller demon though, as this will be read in your season six podcast I think it is safe to point out that Ben is Human, with Glory’s essence living within him. Does the fact that he had to clean up after her again imply that he has already summoned this demon within his lifetime? If so should the gang not have been able to find evidence of one of this more recent summonings? I suppose this is what happens when you don’t put enough time into your research.

    Into the Woods.
    Now I can’t remember who it was that played Celebrate good times when they commented on this episode, but thank you, I think I may have to cue up that song every time I come to this point when I re-watch the show. (something I do once or twice due to the fact that I’m a giant nerd for this show.)

    Now I don’t want to say I hated our dear Captain Cardboard, but he and Buffy where never going to last for two reasons.
    First off they are both natural leaders. Despite the writhing mass of bad writing and acting that was the Initiative, Riley did manage to clime the ranks of a government organization. This fact has to imply some sort leadership skills. Neither He, nor Buffy have the capasity to let another person take charge in the relationship, although Riley is obviously more equipped to make the attempt. This flaw alone would have been enough to doom their relationship.
    The second reason has been touched on before, but Buffy will never be able to give her entire self to a relationship. Her calling is everything to her, and although she needs to have a support group in her life, the people offering that support need to understand and accept their role as second fiddle to her slaying, something our scoobie gang has learned to do.
    Riley resides on the opposite side of that coin. His partner is always going to be the most important thing to him, and he needs to be the same for her. He is fully willing to immerse himself into whatever is most important to that partner but he needs to be able to stand beside her, not two steps back.
    Although their is nothing wrong with either of these personality types, one simply can not be truly happy with the other.

    For this episode I just want to point something out that could be seen as a continuity error, but I like to think of it more as a comment on Anya’s moral compass when she was first making the transition from demon back to human.
    Back in season four’s Something Blue, while explaining how she knows D’Hoffryn had abducted Willow, she says:
    “I’d been dumped, I was miserable.Doing a few vengeance spells. boils on the penis, nothing fancy.”
    Now we are finding out that one of the spells she did turned someone into a troll. Was this part of the nothing fancy she referred to? I like to think so.

    I also have a video link I want to share. Apparently it was quite popular so some of you may have seen it, but I have heard Cordy make vague mention to the fo-pire I refer to as Sparkle Puss when forced to refer to him at all, and I think she will enjoy this video on the same level as I did. Although it does contain scenes from all seven season I have watched it a few times and feel safe in saying there is no spoiler content for those who are watching for the first time. The video is called Buffy vs Edward

    • The timeline troubles with Ben and Glory were always a huge problem for me. The first time I watched the show some how I convinced my brain that they(Ben/Glory) were actually alive for a really long time. That some how Glory made Ben live abnormally long. Alas on rewatch they confirm that he’s only been alive for 20ish years (I dont remember exactly how old he’s suppose to be) It would have made so much more sense if he’d been around say 200 years. That way it would also make the Knights order a more believable thing.

  5. So, just some miscellaneous season 6 beginning stuff (I am about to watch All The Way tonight),
    The first two episodes on my DVD were joined together, which I liked- I don’t think I would have been able to wait even a day to find out what the scoobies reactions would have been like!
    Onto After Life, I love Spike’s reaction to Buffy being back and I really liked how when they first saw each other they were in the same places as they were in Spike’s ‘I know I’m a monster’ speech- him being at the bottom of the stairs, she heading down them. Spike is so much stronger in this episode then maybe all his others combined (not that he wasn’t amazing in them!), the moment when he meets Xander’s eyes in this episode was incredibly well acted.
    I might just mix Flooded and Life Serial into one paragraph- I don’t exactly dislike The Trio but they aren’t really that likable either, just really weird. I do like how they’re people we’ve seen before (except for Andrew) and they have “quirks”, I did laugh at the Star Wars theme car horn and their arguments about James Bonds. I got goose bumps when watching Willow and Giles’ argument- they’ve definitely come so far from their old mentor-mentee relationship in the High School Years, even in Hush where Willow uses her message board to write “Hi Giles” and he gives her a hug. Now, more on Willow, I still can’t believe this is the same girl who let her mum dress her in Welcome to the Hellmouth, she’s grown so much and some of it was for the worst. I think Willow’s one of those people who isn’t suited for power as much as she would like to protest that, she gets corrupted by it as seen in the Giles/Willow argument in her final line.
    Now, onto more miscellaneous things, firstly I just spent the previous weekend at a convention where Clare Kramer (Glory) was appearing as was Alan Tudyk (Wash in Firefly), Clare was an amazingly lovely person and was more then happy to talk to you while signing things and at her panel, where she would ask you follow up questions to your original question- not that relevant but just thought you might be interested. Also, here’s a link to her website which is quite a good browse if you have the time:
    Anyway, will be catching up with you in about 7 episodes- can’t wait!!!

  6. First. If you’re are a fan of Joss Whedon stuff and/or Shakespeare go see Much Ado About Nothing. Finally got to see it this past weekend. Such a fun film. I like to personally believe that it’s really Wesley having a hallucination the whole time, but I digress. If you’re lucky enough to be by a theater thats showing it. Go out and have a good time :).

    Second I just wanted to add one thing that I didnt get to put in my voicemail.
    I just wanted to remark again on the language that Warren uses in this episode and how dehumanizing it becomes especially once Katrina dies. He literally says “Get rid of IT.” She ceases to be a person. :/ I’m sure this is gonna be a bit of a downer episode.

    • Absolutely. Go see it. It’s a great film, and you get to see Wesley and Fred together again!

      • Agreed. Saw it yesterday afternoon and my face was sore from smiling/laughing the entire time. Go see it people!

    • I went to an advanced screening here in Melbourne followed by a Skype Q&A with Kai Cole who is a producer on the film and also Joss Whedon’s wife (!!!), it is an amazing film- backing up all previous comments!

  7. I wrote a blog post on my friend’s blog about Spike. Lots of season 6 & 7 spoilers, but check it out.

  8. I love that Katrina spells out what the trio were doing to her. Jonathan and Andrew seemed so caught up in what they were doing and in acting like bad guys that they never stopped to think about what they were doing. I love Jonathan’s reaction when she tells them that it’s rape. It looks like he got punched in the stomach, and it was exactly what he needed to wake up. He stood up to Warren when Warren suggested letting Buffy die, but no one got permanently hurt, so I think he just brushed that aside. This time, a woman was nearly raped and then murdered, and her death blamed on someone else. Warren’s first reaction is to hide what he did, and he doesn’t seem to feel guilty at all, either of attempted rape or of murder. Jonathan at least wants to turn themselves in to the police. Here’s hoping he’ll stand up to Warren a bit more in the future episodes. Season 6 is the one I remember least, though I have seen it several times.

    Warren’s psychology kind of fascinates me. I wish we could go back and see what made him how he is. Has he always been so misogynistic? Or was it that having a sex-bot for who knows how long changed his outlook. I imagine that having a robot in the form of a woman who worships you would mess with your head.

  9. I’m curious if anyone else saw the balcony scene and thought “Lynch” right away only to have him name dropped later on in the episode.

  10. Dead Things:

    – Wow. I had forgotten this episode, and now I am really sorry I was defending Jonathan. I don’t see any way for any of these guys to come back from attempted mind control and gang rape, and it’s actually a real challenge to imagine how Buffy is going to deal with them without slaying them. Andrew and Jonathan are still being written as caricatures; I don’t buy for a minute that they wouldn’t realize what they were doing was wrong.

    – That said, all three actors are doing a pretty good job with what they are being given. Warren’s loathsome but very compelling, Jonathan’s emerging doubt is well done, and if the episode weren’t so horrible, some of Andrew’s reactions would have been pretty funny.

    – Were Spike and Buffy having sex on the balcony? If so, does Spike have some kind of special pants? Also, how do you end up underneath a rug, except to please the censors?

    – As before, Spike’s vulnerability makes him very sympathetic, even when we can see him trying to isolate Buffy and drag her down. The end of the alley beatdown was particularly effective. If dropping vamp face means that Spike wasn’t angry anymore, then Buffy’s last speech just defeated him.

    – Katrina was a weird contrast – I felt bad for her, but it was a striking choice to make her 100% angry and contemptuous. It would have been plausible for her to express some regret in the bar or fear in the basement, but maybe that would have made the episode even more harrowing for the viewers.

    – Buffy’s decision to turn herself in didn’t make any rational sense – the right argument isn’t how many people has she saved or what will Dawn do, but is how many people will die if she spends a few years in prison. The scene with Tara puts it in perspective – Buffy is doing it because she thinks she deserves to be punished, and (apparently) killing a person pushes her over the edge.

    – The Buffy-Tara scene was great, and I’m liking Tara more and more. Still, Buffy needs to learn to stop having secret conversations in her living room. It would have served her right if Dawn had overheard this one too.

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